Sell It Before You Build It

Philipp Baaske00:01:16

We have a strong Franconian dialect. Some teachers consider them or this dialect as stupid. If you can’t speak like an educated person, they think you are not an educated person, you’re not so clever. And then they told my parents this guy is not clever enough for the gymnasium.

Christian Soschner00:01:31

Welcome to this thrilling episode where we dive deep into the world of NanoTemper and the captivating story of its founder, Philipp Baaske. Together we’ll explore the relentless pursuit of scientific breakthroughs and the driving forces behind Philipp’s journey. We will unveil the secret source of NanoTemper success and how the revolutionary tools are helping scientists conquer the most formidable challenges in drug discovery and development. So get ready for an emotional roller coaster ride through the world of NanoTemper where determination, innovation, and sheer passion are fueling the race towards a future where every disease can be conquered. I think it was pretty amazing because it happened last week, if I remember it right, on Wednesday and Thursday. And on Thursday, I saw the first post on LinkedIn. It’s pretty amazing how social media works these days.

Philipp Baaske00:02:27

Yeah. Yeah, it’s quite quick. And it’s I think it’s very important for all people in the tech industry. So in our networks, which are all about deep tech. I think it was natural that it plopped up because it’s so important.

Christian Soschner00:02:46

Yeah, naturally, it was good. Twitter was filled with comments from Jason Calacanis, for example, from the All-In podcast and David Sacks, he was one of the founders of PayPal, and they were communicating a lot about the impact on the entrepreneurial landscape. What’s your opinion about the impact of the SVB bankruptcy on entrepreneurship here in Europe? Do we see any?

Philipp Baaske00:03:09

I think we will know afterwards. It’s always in this crisis, you know, also with 2008, is what we call now financial crisis. What will be the impact of this? Let’s call it maybe it’s a crisis, maybe not. I think we all know that predictions are hard, especially about the future. So we will know afterwards what the impact was. What I see is as an entrepreneur, for me it’s more important. Does it impact me? And what can I do? It maybe impacts the whole industry, but I can’t change it. I can’t do anything to improve the situation for the Silicon Valley Bank or the whole bank thing. What I can do is to improve the situation for my company. And this is what I do. I focus on the things I can do, I can change, I can influence, and I don’t let myself be disturbed with all this news, this panic, there’s a lot of talking about it, what will happen to us. I can’t change it. So I focus on the things, okay, what can I do with my company, what can I do with my people, and this is what I try to focus on and not to get myself distracted. I follow the news, yes. It’s because it’s also interesting to me what happens there, but I don’t let myself be disturbed by it or to get to be afraid of something. I really focus on the now, what can I do? And then let’s see in in one year what’s the interpretation of this incident will be.

Christian Soschner00:04:37

How do you do that? I mean, social media is filled these days with bad news, actually. Yeah, and I learned during the pandemic to use social media on a daily basis and Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn when something happens like SVB is just filled with bad news. And I see the same way than you do. Actually, I can’t do anything against it. Yeah. So why focus on that? How do you tune yourself out of social media when you see there is a lot of negative negativity coming up? How do you do that?

Philipp Baaske00:05:05

There’s a lot of speculation. So there is talking, talking, talking about speculations, but the big changes always live on a on a longer timescale. And now I I saw that the US government took some action, Biden made a statement. So they do something, and this is fine for me, and I think they will stay with a statement. And I just don’t read the things. I just okay, yes, there will happen something, and I trust people have a good network. And I think if it really gets dangerous and something will really happen to us, I will be told. I mean, what we have checked is I mean, just your gut feeling tells you never have all your assets at one bank. We have several banks, and we also looked, okay, do we have a certain risk where we have everything at one account and we don’t have so this is what I watched at do we have a principal risk here? And now you have a lot of reading about what should have been done to avoid this, but you know, afterwards you always know it. The trick is to know it before, and no one knew before, no one predicted this. So I just don’t don’t read the news about it.

Christian Soschner00:06:18

Yeah, I think this is what you mentioned is the key point. Get a good financial guy in the company who is doing proper risk management. So, what I saw on LinkedIn very often was that companies complained that all the liquidity was in one bank, tied up during the crash of SVB, and they didn’t have any second bank account or third bank account. So I think your advice is really great. When I compare 2023 with the year you started your company, NanoTemper, it was in 2008. Yeah, it feels to me today that we have a similar situation in 2023 like it was in 2008. How did you experience 2008 back then, the financial crisis, when you started your company?

Philipp Baaske00:07:03

So we started as a company out of PhD studies, and when I re when I sit back and think about this time, what happens there? So I was so focused on starting NanoTemper. I knew there was something happening with Lehman Brothers, and it was anyway tough to get money. But this financial crisis, I know tell every everyone it was difficult at this time to get money because it’s a financial crisis. But this is looking back during this time. My crisis, my whole focus was NanoTemper to get it started, to get money, to get products, to get customers. So I was so much into this daily operational thing that I had no time to be afraid of this crisis or to have it top of my mind. And this is also a thing which I think is important. Focus on what you do, and this also helps you to ignore these things. Maybe ignoring is the wrong word. I mean, it’s something happening, you should take it seriously, but not put your focus on it.

Christian Soschner00:08:08

Ignoring, I think, yeah, is it a bad word? Doesn’t you just think about it? I was I have a business background. And in 2008, I was part of some uh, let’s say, interest groups, and there was this whole discussion about will we survive next year? What will happen? Is the economy failing? Is the financial industry failing? And the entire focus was on the problem. So I think what you said, I read it very often in books from Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk, that you also have this ability to focus their attention on the task at hand rather than all this chatter around it. Is this the advice that you would give entrepreneurs these days to do it similarly like you did in 2008, to focus on driving their business forward instead of getting distracted from market turbulences?

Philipp Baaske00:08:58

Absolute focus on the things you can influence, you have an impact on, and set up your company in a way that you can react. There’s always, I mean in Germany, entrepreneur is called Unternehmer. Some underneah means someone who does something. So you always have to be in a position where you can do something. And you this is what you have to do. You bring have to bring yourself in a position where you can act and react and only think about the things you can change.

Christian Soschner00:09:31

How do you how do you do that on a personal level, just out of curiosity? when something happens in your company, what’s what’s your North Star to decide? Is it an important thing to focus on, or is it something that you can prioritize a little bit down on the list? How do you do that?

Philipp Baaske00:09:52

I would say in a very pragmatic thing when something happens, I sleep over it. And if I can’t sleep well during the night and I dream about it, I know there is something serious happening, at least emotionally for me. And the other thing is I trust my people. So they are all selected, it’s a great team, and I trust them, and I’m I’m sure that we can adapt to everything which is coming. And this helps me to sleep most of the nights. So I think that’s a trust in your people. If you’re if you can’t trust your people, you have a problem, you have to change this. But trust in your people, you really your team together you can achieve a lot. This will help you, whatever the situation is, you can adapt to it.

Christian Soschner00:10:41

Let’s talk a little bit about your company, NanoTemper. mentioning people and the team is a great hook for the for the next question. When you reached out to me asking if we can do a podcast together, I was NanoTemper, it’s a Bavarian company, and you automatically ended up in my small company bucket. So I thought NanoTemper, it’s the usual European life science company, 15 to 20 employees, and it’s rather small. Then I started, I didn’t do my research very properly, so it’s sorry for that. And then I started doing some research on your company and started posting also on LinkedIn and put the event website up. And every day another employee popped up, and the next employee, and they shared all the content they posted, and then I thought this hour already 15, and then we have the number 16 and number 17. So I must be wrong. This was the first time when I looked at accidentally your LinkedIn profile for your company and saw that you have 197 employees on LinkedIn. And if I read the internet properly, I think it’s close to 230 employees that you have currently in your company. can you give me the right picture of your company, the size and where it’s operative in which countries?

Philipp Baaske00:11:58

We know 237 people. We have 30 nationalities in the company, which is a lot, 30, yeah. We were just sitting in Copenhagen with a team and counted how many nationalities we have, and we counted 30. So I was also surprised that it’s so many. May I ask you which nationalities? It’s from Trinidad and Tobago to Japan, yeah. It’s from South Africa to Norway, so very international, very diverse, a great team, and we are headquarters in Munich. But we have also subsidiaries in San Francisco, in the Boston area, in Bangalore, Shanghai, Peking, and Tokyo, just to name a few of them. So very international, as a business is international. So this is a flying word, which means business is local. So you have to be at the customer. So we have the customer in the focus, so we are where the customer is, and these are the hotspots. Everyone knows Boston area is a hotspot for biotech, so very strong in the Boston area. So we follow the market and the customer.

Christian Soschner00:13:03

How do you do that? I think you mentioned you have employees in Japan, in Boston, in San Francisco, and in Munich. So it’s basically a global operation. How do you manage that on a daily basis? Having phone calls during the night, during the day? It’s basically a 24-7 business.

Philipp Baaske00:13:19

No, it’s the management is all about trust. When you trust the people, and I trust the people, you don’t have to manage them. You don’t have to micromanage them, you trust them. They are selected, we we believe in them, we trust them, we work together very well. So it’s not about talking every day, say no to do the job. You know, when you when you start up a company, you have to hire really people that are better than you, who can really do the job. This is tough, you know. You started it and then you hire new people and they do the job better than you do. It’s tough when you see them, okay, wow, they do it so much better. What have I done the last years? But this means also you have to let them do their job. You don’t have to disturb them for doing the job, so you trust them. And then they do the business in Japan and San Francisco, wherever they do it. And they will call you when they need advice. Of course, you synchronize the common, you have tools, web tools like Asana and the other, which are global in the cloud, which helps you to synchronize everything. And I think honest communication is very important and transparency so that people can see what is happening and use the brain power to integrate it and to become to get into doing. So the assumption is we trust the people, we have the best people, and we enable them to do their job. So this is how we set up the company.

Christian Soschner00:14:48

I think this is an important part, not micromanaging your team, uh, to create a larger entity. You mentioned that one of your most important criteria is to hire people that do their jobs better than you can do it. I’m curious now. How do you what’s your decision criteria? When do you feel that somebody’s doing a better job than you do? I mean, I always have the problem when somebody’s better than me. I mean, I can judge it because it’s he’s better. But how much better and is he really better is something which is beyond my expertise. How do you manage that?

Philipp Baaske00:15:25

By experience and learning. In the beginning I had to learn how to touch it. It was tough, maybe in 90%. I’ve been wrong. So it was tough times to learn, a lot of mistakes, hard for both sides. So you hire people, you touch them wrongly. I’ve been also not a bad leader and manager, so I had to adapt and learn. And most important, learn my gut’s feeling. So it’s a lot about the CV and the application letter, if this fits together, and from the C V you learn about the technical skills, and with the application letter, if it matches to the CV. So in the CV, for a certain skill set, you have a certain personality, and when you write it in the application, it has to fit. So this is and then a personal meeting, and then gut’s feeling. I figured out that a meeting, a job interview via teams does not work for me. It has to be in person on teams that do misjudgment. And I also and then it’s guts feeling. Just guts feel as as simple as it sounds, it’s guts feeling, but this is not scalable with a company of our size. This is not scalable. And I also have the problems, it’s only my gut’s feeling. But it’s not about me, it’s about the company. So I know we also need people to come forward where maybe my gut’s feeling is not working anymore. And this was one learning in the last year to to scale the company. Also, Stefan and me become bottlenecks in hiring. And you you have to hire diverse people. Also, people you maybe personally you don’t have a perfect fit. And so you can do this with your executive team, with your leadership team. You can scale up the hiring. You you talk about the culture and the value of the company, and this gives you a dire a direction, what kind of people you can you can choose.

Christian Soschner00:17:33

I think it’s always challenging when I mean when starting a company, initially it’s just people around the core expertise of the company, where it’s easy to judge who is good, who is not so good, uh, who needs a promotion, who doesn’t need a promotion, who is ambitious, who is not ambitious. But when entities are getting bigger, um, as you said, the skill set becomes more and more diverse. So, from coming from a technical scientific perspective, what’s your North Star to judge, for example, business people? and to judge with your gut feeling lawyers, for example, how do you how do you feel that they are the right fit for your company and that they provide the right expertise?

Philipp Baaske00:18:11

It’s a lot of personality of if I can trust them. I don’t work together with people I can’t trust. I don’t work together with people I would need a contract to work with them. We always made a make a contract, it’s it’s professional, but it’s a judgment of personalities. Yeah, this is really it’s about trust if they’re honest, transparent, and if I can trust them to the main. Sometimes if it’s not the case, I don’t do the business because it’s definitely me. If we don’t feel good with it, we don’t do it. This is we own the company fully, we are independent, we have the freedom. So if we have a bad feeling with someone, we we trust our feelings and our experience.

Christian Soschner00:19:00

That means in a multinational business a lot of traveling. Basically, you said you manage your operations personally, in person, not so much via teams, and you have companies in US, Japan, so you’re basically all the time on the road.

Philipp Baaske00:19:16

No, we can do it if I mean if I do a job interview, I can’t judge a person via teams. But if I know a person, if if there was one personal meeting or a few of them, it works very well about teams. And the thing is because we have so great people, we have very low fluctuations. So a lot of people stay very long with us. So we know each other very well, we build up the trust, we build up a communication level where we really understand each other. And this makes it very effective and efficient because of this good knowledge. When you have the leadership team where most of the people have been with the company for five or six years, you really know each other, and then communication is easy also about different time zones and different locations. But for me, a few times, especially in the beginning, I need this personal contact to get to know each other. And the good thing is we can also invite them to Munich at the Oktoberfest, every October, and it’s Oktoberfest or it’s September, you invite the people and get to know each other. Yeah, and often beer is a good icebreaker.

Christian Soschner00:20:25

We can set it as Europeans that with the Oktoberfest, it’s a great event. I mean, what I see on the internet from your company, your marketing is great, it’s perfect. You have uh, I think it’s three slogans so that I remember. One is creating a world in which every disease is curable. I like it very much. And then there are one or two. Correct me if I’m wrong. Making the invisible visible to make the undruggable trackable. These were the first slogans that I saw on your website, and they jumped really into my eyes. how did you come up with these slogans? What was the process behind it?

Philipp Baaske00:21:04

So we have a really good marketing team, and and and Jocelyne, she’s working on the West Coast, she’s really great in condensing the messages and the feeling to this. So she Jocelyn brought up this greater world where every disease is treatable, or better it’s we want to help to achieve this. And then we agreed on the team, we discussed it, how we feel about it, and then we’ve we’ve chosen it. And then you see, I mean you see what’s sticking. If you write down a sentence and you talk about it and no one remembers it, if it doesn’t stick, it’s not a good messaging. If it sticks, like this help create a world where everything is treatable, or we make the invisible visible, drug the undruggable, the sticks, and then it’s a good message.

Christian Soschner00:21:59

Let’s let’s go. To a tough topic. You studied your company in Munich and your marketing is in San Francisco. Out of curiosity, you don’t have to answer. But you have experience with marketing people in Europe, and you have experience with marketing people over on the West Coast. Where do you see the differences? What’s different between marketing approaches in Europe and in the United States? Are they pretty much the same or are there different strengths that you can use for your company?

Philipp Baaske00:22:27

Yes, you have different strengths, so this is a good thing when you have a global company. I mean, we have Italian design for the products, we have this German engineering, and we have West Coast marketing. So when also we have 30 nationalities in the company, we don’t think about okay, who is better than the other. We think where are the strengths, and then we combine it and make something great from it.

Christian Soschner00:22:55

So you take the best basically from all cultures. Yep. German engineership. You started your company in 2008 with your co-founder Stefan Duhr, and you had the idea to start NanoTemper technologies. When I remember my time in the 90s when I finished my university studies and got my degree, basically the majority of people got one advice from their parents go find a job in a real company and don’t do anything adventurous like funding a company starting a company. What was your motivation to not go down the pharma route or the academic route and this but decide I start my company?

Philipp Baaske00:23:34

I think there was an opportunity to start it. So we during our PhD thesis, Stefan and we had a project together, and then we’ve we rediscovered and in fact it was called thermophoresis. The funny thing is that Thermophoresis was. We are now here in Vienna. And thermophoresis was first described here in Vienna in Vienna. Really? Mr. Ludwig described it, it was in 1856. There’s a publication, it’s a one-pager. If you read it, you don’t understand it. He published it in the Akademie der Wissenschaften in Wien. So we rediscovered this effect during our PhD thesis. And the thing was, it was described in the wrong way. So everyone thought what we do is impossible, because the theory told it the publication told it’s impossible, but experiment showed it’s possible. And so it was good for the pattern application. If everyone thinks it’s impossible, your inventive step is there. So we found this effect. We realized by talking with people, then it was Mr. Farnholz from Roche. He brought us to the protein business and said, hey, is there technology is missing? And we realized there is an opportunity there to do something. And this is also typically for entrepreneurs, as I said, underneh, unternehmen, you do something. And the thing you have an opportunity and then you do it. I think I’m maybe the thing is I’m not a person seeing the risks first, I’m seeing the opportunities first. So there was an opportunity, and we just took it.

Christian Soschner00:25:21

So you started with Stefan Duhr in 2008 based on a patent filed in Austria in 1856. It was basically the time of the monarchy. So it’s almost 170, 180. I don’t have Axel, unfortunately, yeah. 170, 180 years roughly ago. I think our politicians could be happy here in Austria. So basically, an Austrian patent is successful in the world thanks to your team. In 2008, you were two people when you started the company. Now you’re two over 230. And in 2008 it was Germany, Munich, and now it’s Japan, it’s Europe, Munich, it’s Boston, it’s San Francisco. When you look at this pathway in this timeline from 2008 up to now, what were the most notable free milestones on your journey?

Philipp Baaske00:26:15

One thing I can remember very well was how we sold the first device. So we did a lot of demonstrations to the research group, also to companies, and I think 30 of them failed, but we we kept on on trying, we really had a strong belief. And since there was this company in Munich, it was Crelux. And we had to they gave samples to us and told us if you get the sample running, we will buy a device from you. So I can very well remember I was sitting, it was the 23rd December of 2009, so day before Christmas. I was sitting on the in the lab on the microscope, a very basic setup, and I was doing the experiments and was working really hard until the night because I want to get it finished to visit my parents for Christmas. So we finished the experiments there, sent the data to Crelux and went for Christmas and New Year’s Eve. In January 2010, Crelux phoned us, yeah, you can win us, we will buy. Super. And then they bought the device before we had it. Just transferred money to us, and with this money we bought the parts for the first device, then we built the device, we shipped it to them in March, and from the money we got we we bought the parts for the next two devices. Cool. And since this time we are profitable, and I think in 2010 we already sold 30 devices.

Christian Soschner00:28:00

That’s super. It reminds me of I think it was both Apple and Microsoft, didn’t they start similar? I think they also had their first customers, uh, got some upfront payments and then produced what they needed to produce. I mean, when we stare a little bit at this what you did from 2008 to 2010, getting your first customers in basically product market fit. When I look on the market before 2023 and think about my experience with incubation program, acceleration programs, it always felt to me that the utmost priority was finding investors. Although when I read through LinkedIn these days, maybe it’s just my bubble, but there are a lot of information, it’s a lot of information how to find your investor, how to pitch to investors, how to get your company fitting with the investors’ need, and vice versa. And you went down a different route. You found customers. In your opinion, when you look at the market today, what’s your advice to entrepreneurs? Would you rather go for if it just have to make a decision, would you rather go for product market fit in this economic environment, or would you also spend some resources on finding investors to move your company forward?

Philipp Baaske00:29:11

My advice would always be focus, make a decision. So it’s about look inside yourself. What do you want? Is independence and freedom important for you? Or want to have maybe become rich, or want to have a lot of money? I mean, venture capital, private equity dominates the news, so social media companies are backed by venture capital, private equity, and we read social media. So it’s obvious that they will talk about funding, how they’ve been founded, because they have to promote their own story. But this is not the only way. I mean, important is that you have a choice. You have the choice between bootstrapping or venture capital. Both okay. You have to be aware in venture capital you have to make them rich. They give you money that you make more money out of it than others can do. This is why they give you money and they want to sell. And then you have to think, okay, okay, I have the first venture capital, they want to sell in five years. What happens then? The next venture capital guy or company buys it, and then the next, the next, then you have to do an IPO or a strategy guy company buys you, or you’re bankrupt. These are the options. It’s you have to be aware. If you start with venture capital, you take this route, which is absolutely fine. This is a good route, but you have to be aware what you do. And the other route is maybe the bootstrapping route. You may grow slower, you but you grow with the money of the customer. And this money, you earn it before you get it. With the products you build, and you really own the money. You can do whatever you want with this money, then you have freedom and independence. Both sides not better or worse. I think you see my tendency. We we go the boots away. I think we tried the venture capital way, we looked for money, no one was giving to us. We was not good in presenting, but you have to make a choice. I think it’s the the worst thing you can do is following both routes at one in parallel, because then you don’t focus. You don’t focus on product, you don’t focus on on your pitch stacks and getting the money. So you have to take a decision, you have to risk not to do everything, and this is the most important thing. What what a founder has to do, what the CEO has to do, you have to take the hard decisions. You have to say, no, I’m not doing this, I go this route. And then you fail and you stand up, and maybe you take the other route. But when you try something, you have to fully try it, not just a little bit. It’s full focus on the one thing. Really push it that it works, and if you then fail, it’s fine. You tried it, but it’s really about trying the one thing.

Christian Soschner00:32:12

When we stay at the first milestone, finding investors or finding the first customers, I think they’re all there are always market cycles. And starting a company in 2008, I mean, I I’m not aware of any company who was successful in fundraising, especially in the venture capital space. The market was pretty much dried out. So I think it must not necessarily be a judgment of the quality of the company to not get venture capital. It’s probably just bad luck to start in the wrong time. It’s it reminds me of 2000 2023, which we have now, that we also have a complete different market environment today than we had three years ago. So three years ago it was basically easy to find money, there were new financial models on the market, like the entire SPAC industry, and now it’s completely tried out. but I think it’s necessary when a company is to get a good financial guy on board and always, as you mentioned, explore both routes. So is it possible to get venture capital in, or is it more time to find more customers and sell more to get more capital into the company? It’s always about growth at the end of the day, and having the right skill set in the company is key to success. My next question when we stay on the milestone route, so the first one was finding the customer. What was the second milestone, notable milestone, between 2008 and 2023?

Philipp Baaske00:33:28

For me, a milestone is to really see that we help the users and customers first of all get the product done and then experience what the customers do with it. We had this PhD student, I think her name was Tanja. She visited us and she told us I have the sample, I have to get it working for my PhD thesis. And I’m working three years on it and no progress. And then she put it in our device, and one hour later she had the data. And I mean she had tears in her eyes, it was really emotional. And then this is a point where you really experience that you do something important which really helps the customers, also an emotional level, and this is still also the energy. I get a lot of energy from visiting customers and seeing what they really do with our products. Because then you experience it helps. It’s not only on a on a financial sheet where you see some revenue numbers, you really experience that someone uses your device for a good thing and feels good about it. And so I have a lot of milestones. It was just recently at the SLAS, one customer approached us and told us your Dianthus device is almost revolutionary. Cool. And then we ask him, why almost? Why not revolutionary? What is missing? Then he told us. And this is we now do a lot of things to remove the almost. Yeah. But this is what drives us to really see that we have the customers.

Christian Soschner00:35:10

I think it I like your customer approach. Let’s stay a little bit with that. I think it was Steve Jobs who said never ask customers what problems they have because they don’t know them. So as an entrepreneur, an entrepreneur must have the ability to observe the customers, find out what problems they have and how to solve them. What’s your approach with NanoTemper? Is it like Steve Jobs that you go to your customers, that you observe them and find out this way which problems they have, or are you doing it more the traditional marketing way, finding a focus group, bringing some customers together, asking them about their problems? What do you think is successful on the market in your area?

Philipp Baaske00:35:53

First of all, I disagree with Steve Jobs. Say it’s important to talk with them about their problems, but it’s really about the problem, not talking about a technical solution. I had one case where it was about we need a cooling stage for the samples. And it was in this case, it was very difficult to build a cooling stage, and everyone was talking about how to build a cooling stage. So I was talking with a customer, okay, what do you really want by cooling stage? What do you want to do with the cooling stage? And you know, I want to prevent evaporation. When I cool it down, evaporation slows down. And then it was about okay, why a cooling station? Why not having something to close it? So it’s a thing you really have to find the problem and not don’t talk about the technical solutions, about really understanding the problem and really get to the same to understanding with the customer. It’s also I said we make the invisible visible. And I was this was also a learning. I talked to a customer and he was talking about invisible particles. He comes from pharma. I come from the thick. For me, invisible is below 170 nanometers because the diffraction limit. For him, invisible means I can he can’t see it with an with his eye. The same word, but a different meaning and understanding. So it’s a lot about communication, really understand what the other person means. And then it’s also different between what the user wants and what the user needs. So I fully disagree with Steve Jobs. It’s about talking with the customer about their problems. They all scientists, they really know what they do and they really know what they want and need. And it’s very good to talk with them and to find this. Oh, and it’s also about trust. You have to like our communication, you have to do a lot of small talking and other approaches to reach a certain level of trust. So you can talk openly about the problem. So that another person doesn’t feel stupid to tell you about something. I mean, you have a problem. You you can’t solve it. So you need a certain trust level to be able to talk about this. And this comfort, it needs a lot of transparency and honesty to reach this level. And we are working really hard on having this trust of our customers so that they can tell us their problems and we can help them.

Christian Soschner00:38:43

Yeah, maybe it’s also a difference between business-to-business customers, and I think Apple, Steve Jobs, is more in the business-to-consumer area. NanoTemper is not producing custom solutions, if I remember it right. You scale your solutions to industrial level. So you can make thousands and hundreds of thousands of machines in your area. How do you decide that? And I’m just curious on your decision criteria when you talk with scientists. I mean, they all work on important problems. how do you find out whether it makes sense to scale a solution to industrial scale or to just drop it? How do you how do you find this this point where you say, okay, this makes sense because many scientists have a similar problem, uh, while other problems are just personal individual problems, which one or two scientists have, which doesn’t make sense to scale to industrial level. What is the decision criteria in that part?

Philipp Baaske00:39:41

So we look at the markets, so it’s about okay, when several users or customers have the same need, you can call it a market. For example, the project market in our area, you see it’s a booming market. It’s also we also see so venture capital guys are really clever, so they do their job very good, they have good search teams. We also look where money is flowing. When a lot of money flows in a certain area, um, a market is forming up. And the other thing is also sounds very simple to look what the competition does. If a competitor sells hundreds of devices in a certain area for a certain application, there is a market, and you just have to build a better product, you just have to do better marketing, you just have to do better sales. It’s very tough, but from the thinking, it’s easier. It’s always easy, it’s always there’s a misunderstanding. I I often also found that founders they say, okay, and this there’s already one company or two companies in this market, we are not the only ones. This is good. If you’re the only one in the market, maybe there is no market. There’s a lot of people are clever. It’s normal that you are not the only one who identify the market. So it’s good when when other companies are there, you can follow them. So also commons are really good in identifying new markets. We are not so good in this, in this, but we know the companies are good in this. So we see where they go, and then we we follow them with a better product. This is why we invest so strongly in R&D. That when we see there is a market, we really try to understand the market, talk with the customers, identify the need, and then we just build a better product.

Christian Soschner00:41:38

This is very interesting. I think it reminds me of Star Trek where to go where nobody else went before, or something like that, I think was the initial jingle. I think it’s always challenging when a company is the first company in an area. It’s always the question Am I the only stupid person here? And does a market not exist basically? Or am I really the first one who experienced or saw the opportunity and went for the opportunity? So your approach is rather being not the stupid person who is going in the wrong direction, but looking at competition, looking at other areas, venture capital, for example, to find out where is the money flowing and where are the big problems. And I would like to stay a little bit in that area. In 2023, which big problems do you see on the market in science? What are scientists working on currently? What do you see in your research?

Philipp Baaske00:42:36

There’s this PROTAC area, which is very cool, where you have a new pharmacological pathway where you have a molecule, maybe a cancer molecule, you want to destroy. And what you do is normally in the former times you just blocked it with a molecule. And this is not always working. Now they have a new approach. You get a molecule attached to it, and this molecule brings a kinase from the cell to it, and you just mark it as trash, and then your cell kills it, and then your molecule moves to the next molecule, cancer molecule, and marks it as trash. And this is a completely new pathway, and this is very exciting. And they’re also there’s a market, it’s called intrinsically disordered proteins. They are new targets, and they were considered as undruggable before because they’re we’re also not good methods to approach them. And these methods, our devices look like just as being made for it. It works. It’s like the market found our devices. Whenever someone tries one of these molecules with our devices as PROTACs or intrinsically disordered proteins, they buy it at once because it works. And we are it seems to be that we are the only one who is so good in this market. So sometimes The market also founds you. But I want to get back to the feeling you described. Sometimes you think, yeah, am I stupid? The solution I have is so simple, so easy. Why have no one done it or tried it before? This is a natural feeling. So I know this feeling very well. It happens often in product development. It sounds so obvious, so simple, so easy. There are so many clever people. Why doesn’t have anyone done it? This is absolutely wrong. Question. If there is a market in a need, go for it. Don’t think about the past. The wise no one has done it. It could be in the past that technology technological technical solutions like lasers or LEDs or superpower CPUs haven’t been there and it has been impossible in the past. And now it’s just so easy.

Christian Soschner00:44:57

How? Sorry to interrupt you. How do you draw the line? How do you draw the line? I mean, when you look at the statistics, it’s still nine out of ten startups fail. So nine out of ten ideas that qualify for becoming a startup don’t work. When you look at drug discovery, drug development, I think we’re talking about 99 out of 100 ideas fail. And one works. When you look at clinical development, I think we are at the same ratio: 9 out of 10 failed, and one works in clinics overall. Just simplified. I think it’s always interesting to how do you decide where to draw the line, where to stop a project? Because it can still be that I mean when nine out of ten fail, that the one idea that I’m clinging on, where I think it’s the right approach, the right direction to go, is the one that doesn’t work. Because I mean, this is the reason why nobody else is doing it. While it might also really be that I’m the only one who sees the right route and the others don’t. Where do you draw the line in your company to say, okay, guys, we went this way, it’s too far, we burned a lot of capital, it doesn’t work. While people in a company might say, no, we don’t believe that, it will work. That’s just pouring another million. What is your decision criteria? Where do you draw the draw the line in your decision making to say, okay, this project goes forward, and we abandon the other project because it doesn’t work?

Philipp Baaske00:46:25

Don’t draw lines. And it’s the problem isn’t the stopping, the problem is the beginning. As you mentioned, everyone knows that nine out of ten fail, ninety, nine out of out of hundred fail. Everyone knows this. So the problem is not the stopping, the problem is the beginning. You often have to discuss should we really start this? It’s it will not work, or you have a new idea, and then all the engineers say, okay, this this this this this problem. So when you talk about the if should we start it, you have a problem. So this is what I call it. Then when I switch to science fiction mode, I try to describe a world where this product exists, and then to get this great problem solvers in the mode where they think about how get I how do I get it done. But then you have to believe that it’s possible. So I’m going away from should I do it from the if to okay, to the how, how should I do it? Because a lot of things are just not began. And this is what it’s not stopping, is not the problem. The starting is a problem. And I mean you you start something, then you fail, and then you have to restart a new thing. This is tough. And this is where you what you have to do in management and leadership, you you have to start these things, despite you failed. Because otherwise you if you don’t fail, you do something wrong. Because if it always works, you don’t do the risky thing, you do you just do the easy thing. It’s about the starting. And this is what I see in Germany and Europe, we have a problem is when nine out of ten fail, we see the nine out of ten. In USA, it seems to me they see the one who worked, not the nine who failed. Yeah. And this is why you say try so risky things.

Christian Soschner00:48:27

Well, I’m European after all, but there’s also, I mean, um, some people believed in flying, that’s why we have the aviation industry, and some people still believe that the earth is flat, which is outright stupid. you mentioned in one of your posts that you grew up on the countryside. And I hope I said your post right on LinkedIn that your teachers told your parents that you don’t qualify for higher education. Is that really?

Philipp Baaske00:49:01

Is that really that way? I think you here have a strong Franconian dialect. Yeah. So, and some teachers consider them or this dialect as stupid because they can’t. Yeah, if you can’t speak like an educated person, they think you are not an educated person, you’re not so clever. And then they told my parents, this guy is not clever enough for the gymnasium. Really? Then I did this Hauptschule as a five grade again, but just have very good grades, and then went to the gymnasium because it wasn’t obvious that I am good enough. I think my parents they also had an IQ test for me. So it wasn’t based the decision was then based on on data. And the funny thing is this teacher who told my parents I’m not clever enough had to give me the book prize of the German Society of Physics for the best Abitur in physics. This was quite funny, and he can’t he couldn’t remember it. It was just I don’t know how this could happen.

Christian Soschner00:50:09

Yeah, thank God that you didn’t listen because otherwise NanoTemper would not exist. Yeah. I mean it’s I I experienced pretty much the same here in Austria. I’m also from a small village for Austrian, so it’s my grandparents had their farm in a small village with I think 200 inhabitants. My parents lived in a small city with a little bit above 10,000, and teachers had power roles in society, so they judged this guy should go down this route, and that girl is qualifying for that job, and parents believed that. Why did you break out of this pattern? What made you break out and say, okay, I mean I don’t care what teachers say, I just go my own my own way. What was your decision criteria back then?

Philipp Baaske00:50:54

I care. I care what they say, so I care a lot about what people say, but I also have a strong will, I would say. I take a lot of things serious. But then it was why because I could, I would say. It was so it felt obvious that this is the right route because I was interested in learning more. Or this village, I was just I think it was eating books. All the knowledge I could get, I was just sucking it up. I want I wanted to learn. And I want to to get to know more from the world, especially I’m very much interested in people. So people excite me. I like people, people like me, and I wanted to learn more. So it was I had to do it, there was no other way. I I just couldn’t stay in a small world. I have to broaden my my borders, and this is what I still do. I want to to learn more, I want to broaden my borders. I I often or always fight with myself to come overcome my ego, to get out of my comfort zone, to learn new things. For me, it’s always a fight. I’m always afraid of new things. It may look like I’m doing a lot of new things, but I’m afraid of them. It’s really for me a fight with the new, somehow very emotional, maybe sometimes aggressive thing I have. I really have to fight with new things. So I think I sometimes pissed off people because when they tell me something new, I had a defense reaction, now I have this under control. But I’m somehow afraid of the new, but also excited. And then I I fight with it in my mind, and then curiosity always wins. But I’m very I have a lot of fears and afraid of new things, but somehow my curiosity is stronger.

Christian Soschner00:52:52

How do you fight through this wall? I think I read a book about I think it was The War of Art. And the author described that all artists have basically this tendency to have to fight for the art to get going. what’s your secret to get going and not to just get stuck and do something else? I mean, procrastination, for example, is uh, in my opinion, the strongest way to not pursue the own goals. So I mean it’s what you describe is basically what happens also in my life. I see a goal, I want to go in the direction, and then I feel something is holding me back. And it’s so tempting to then pull out the smartphone, um, do a little bit of watching Netflix or gaming or something else, but not pursuing a goal. how do you how do you get yourself motivated initially to take the first steps towards the direction of your goal, but rather than doing what 97% of society is doing, playing games and doing nothing?

Philipp Baaske00:53:53

I have a lot of people helping me. Also, my girlfriend is pushing me forward, Stefan is pushing me forward, a lot of people in the company and my network are pushing me forward. So it’s also something I realize that it’s a lot a lot is about collaborations, mentorship, coaching, having people supporting you. Yeah, and they help me when I see when I’m completely, let’s say, not open to a do a thing, and I see my girlfriend is very open to it. It helps me to go there. It’s not always easy for both of us, but it really helps me. And so is it’s also with Stefan, we have completely different personalities. So sometimes I’m defensive to something, and Stefan really likes this, and this helps me to get there. Alone, I’m not sure if I would achieve this alone. I don’t think so. It’s really about I have to talk with people about it, and people help me to overcome my hurdles. It’s a good thing you’re not alone.

Christian Soschner00:54:53

Yeah.

Philipp Baaske00:54:55

And people’s like people like to help you.

Christian Soschner00:54:59

Yeah, it’s a I think it’s a good point to have a team that helps overcoming resistance, I would call it that way. It’s one of the most important things, and I think also what you mentioned as an entrepreneur, it’s important to like people. It’s really difficult to build a people’s business without having a passion for people around you. When we go a little bit back to your upbringing, what impact did your experience in your village have on your entrepreneurship spirit?

Philipp Baaske00:55:31

So, experience. So, my parents, my father, and my mother. My father worked as an electrician, my mother in kindergarten, and my grandpa as a farmer. And my parents were complaining about their jobs and their bosses. And my grandfather was not he had his own business. I mean as a farmer, you’re very much influenced by by weather. And if you think about it, you you have in your whole lifetime, you have only 50 or 40 opportunities to get the perfect, let’s say, weed out of whatever the best, the perfect harvest. And you the weather is as it is, it can be bad or good, but it doesn’t help you to complain about the weather because you can’t influence the weather. And this was my learning. What I also said with the Silicon Valley Bank, I can’t influence what is happening there, as I can’t influence the weather. So if there is bad weather, I still try to get the the best possible harvest. And so is if there is a bad finance situation because of a bank crisis, I can’t influence us, but I still try to get the best out of the situation. And this is what I what I learned there. If there is something, I mean I can’t complain. I can’t complain about people because I mean I’m the entrepreneur. I can’t blame anyone, I can’t blame the investor, I can’t blame the Silicon Valley Bank, I can only blame me. So I I have to focus on the things I can do. And it’s not about complaining. We have to change the situation. So don’t waste your time in complaining, put your time into improving.

Christian Soschner00:57:24

Sound advice for Vienna, I guess. So it’s In which decade did you grow up? It’s basically the 80s, or was it 80s, 90s, pre-internet? Born in 1979, so grew up in the 80s and 90s. Ah yeah, so we had the same age group, basically, it was pre-internet times. And then you decided to study physics and start a biophysics company. when I think back to my experience on the countryside, I think physics and mathematics was not on top of the list, it was also more a rural area rural area, now I have it. with more farmers. How did you find your passion for physics?

Philipp Baaske00:58:05

I had good teachers in physics. So as a as a child, I remember I was most interested in biology. But in school, I had bad teachers in chemistry and biology, so I somehow hated it, but now I’m doing it. It’s very good. And I had very good teachers in mathematics and physics and had a talent for it. And then when it comes to studies, I didn’t start with physics. So in I finished school in 1999, then did the civil service, and since there was this IT boom. Also in Germany, MP3 format was discovered by Mr. Brandenburg, and he he joined Ilmenau, a small town university, as professor. So I went to Ilmenau to start with engineering informatics, because you know, from a village with physics, what can you do? Become teacher. I had no idea what to do with physics later on, maybe astronaut, which is cool. Yeah, that’s true. Or science, but there is maybe also find no job. At least in my regions, there was no job for in physics. So I started with informatics, and in this engineering informatics course, you also listen to physics. And in then I had my first physics course, and then I said, okay, no, it’s not informatics, it’s physics, and then I changed to physics. So I tried, I failed, I changed. And now I’m doing business and biochemistry and not physics.

Christian Soschner00:59:38

And what what formed your decision? I mean, basically on the countryside, finishing school was enough for most people. And getting a university degree was for the majority of the society back in the 80s just out of scope. It was just okay, you need a few doctors who treat patients, so in that sense, and a few lawyers, and that’s it basically. The majority, I think, went down the safe job route, and you decided to go for a PhD studies. What formed your decision?

Philipp Baaske01:00:13

I think my father and my parents supported me, and also it was this curiosity. I wanted to learn more to also to go to a new city, and also all this. I realized that there was a lot of knowledge out there. I’m a big science fiction fan. I think you mentioned the Star Trek. Yeah, yeah. And as we are now on TV, as I’m a big Jean-Luc Picard fan, and there’s one thing I want to do: engage. Yeah, so I I had my parents supporting me strongly.

Christian Soschner01:00:47

Do you have still a passion for space? I mean, I think the 80s it was Star Trek, it was Star Wars. I think many people, our generation, started dreaming about space, space exploration. Elon Musk went down this route, so he still, I think, with SpaceX, he has the vision to build a colony on Mars. What’s with your company? Is there any visionary space project going on?

Philipp Baaske01:01:11

I also like space very much, and we indeed have a project with the International Space Station. Yeah. So I think it’s now the launch is planned now for 2025. We will send experiments to the International Space Station. Yeah, it’s a formulation topic, formulation of proteins, how to stabilize them. So I’m very excited about this project. It started already in 2014. So long time project, and the launch has been postponed for several times now, but it’s now planned, I think, May 2025. And then we send an experiment within the space station, so rocket science. Cool. Why space? Why do you need space for your work? And space, you you have nearly no gravity, and you have we do a lot of this temperature, and and all our samples are in liquid. So an antibody, a drug like Herceptin, has to be stable in liquid, and then you have a lot of temperature influences and temperature means you have thermal convection. And thermal convection means if you heat something up, it becomes lighter, and then it moves upwards. And this induces flows, which makes something do this antibodies. And why do it move upwards? It’s the warm thing is lighter, but it only is lighter because because there is gravity. And to really understand what temperature alone does to it, without flows, you have to switch off gravity. What you can’t do on Earth, but on International Space Station, you have microgravity, so nearly no influence of gravity, so we can study the stability, the thermal stability of antibodies without the influence of gravity, without thermal convective flows. And then this whole problem becomes simpler, and we hope to learn something from this.

Christian Soschner01:03:09

How can you imagine that? I mean, it’s quite exciting to imagine that a company that films basically is also your post with with the Oscar on on your LinkedIn profile where you posted that you’re the first person who touched the Oscar here on the in the podcast studio, uh, who is going to space on top of that. How can you imagine that? Is it do you just call Elon and say need beam me up? Be me up, Elon, or beam me up Scotty when we stay in the Star Trek picture. How do you organize such a space project? Is it is it tricky to get into that program or is it just like calling a number and say, I want this experiment, shoot me up and I do it?

Philipp Baaske01:03:52

As they approached us. So scientists approached us that it could be interesting for us to do this because it’s for science it’s very interesting. The switch of gravity and the studies are problems there. So they approached us if it’s also interesting for us. And it’s now running for more than nine years, and it’s not clear if you can make money with it. So I think this is why I like the freedom and independence. We have if I’m a venture capital-driven company, I have to focus on getting money. Then I won’t, I think I think I wouldn’t have done it. But it was just in there was the opportunity to do rocket science, and I’m a science fiction fan. I love space, and then scientists approached us, and then we took the opportunity because it’s cool. It’s very exciting, and this is why I like it so much to have this freedom and independence of a bootstrap and found on company. We can only I don’t care if I earn money with this. I do it because I can, I do it because it’s interesting, and there may come something out of it. I don’t know, it’s very risky, but maybe it’s a really cool thing, and at least a lot of fun. I mean, in life, it’s a lot about fun. We just don’t live to earn money or whatever, it’s also about entertainment and fun, and this is a super exciting project. So we do it because we can.

Christian Soschner01:05:25

You mentioned a couple of times that you like science fiction books. Yeah. And now I’m curious. Which was the most influential science fiction book on your work?

Philipp Baaske01:05:37

I think it’s it’s called Lucky Starr and the Space Rangers from Isaac Asimov. There is a guy, it’s a detective stories with a guy who studied physics. And it says in science council helping the governments to solve difficult problems, and this was somehow a hero. For me, who solved let’s say science fiction problems with science. So he started physics, he was a cool guy, a hero, and this somehow resonated with me in my teenage years. And I like the science fiction mode where they build up a new universe, they set up rules, not real rules, but rules, and stick to the rules. So they build a setting and stick to it, and say a new completely new world evolves. And this helps me to get out of this operational mode and to open up my brain for new things and new new ways of thinking.

Christian Soschner01:06:42

Yeah, Isaac Asimov was a great writer. Yeah, I love his books. You mentioned bootstrapping. When I’ve when I connect the dots to the acceleration incubation programs, in my opinion, it’s all about fundraising. And very often I get the feeling that I talk to entrepreneurs who were part of these programs, which are pretty much good, that they feel a little bit insecure when they get a lot of rejections from VCs because not every business idea qualifies to become a VC case. It’s just basic basic VC science, let’s call it that way, that they invest in certain kinds of projects that guarantee basically a 10x to 100x return. And the majority of the startups ideas are not really qualified to have such a perspective. Many of the scientists or entrepreneurs give up then and say, okay, when I don’t get funding, I don’t continue on that route. You said you started a company with bootstrapping. Did you feel like a second, I mean you brought in your post we were second-hand entrepreneurs, I think. Was it really that way that you felt that VC route is superior to bootstrapping?

Philipp Baaske01:08:01

So I think I there was a a woman from it from Handelsblatt who asked me in a posting, do you feel second class? and I just picked it up. Ah, second class was it. Yeah, it was second class. Do do this bootstrapped communists feel like second class because I complained about. You know, normally I don’t complain, sometimes I do. Yeah, a little bit complaining is fine then. I complain about that they only talk about venture capital because most important is that founders know that they have options. If you only get told there’s only the venture capital races is wrong, you have also the other way. It’s not about getting venture capital, it’s about getting money. You can also get the money from the customer. You can invest in a financial guy getting venture capital, or you invest in sales getting the money from the customer. And then it’s not about not talking about technology, it’s really talking about products. It’s a technology made for a market fit. It’s a product, it fulfills a certain need, and it’s about selling this product. I mean, you have to get you have to force the money to come to you, and sales is a good way. I mean, if you are a tech startup and you come from university, you have the tendency to go on to move on with this development. This is your comfort zone. You can develop, you know, also know how to write grants. So in science, you write grants to get money. It’s like writing a grant for venture capital to get money. You’re always doing the same. But it’s not about development, it’s not about hiring the next developer. You have to do sales. And this is what we did the right way. From the beginning, we focused on sales and we still focus on sales. Because with sales we get the money, we are profitable, and then we fully own the money and can invest it. So this is my advice on startups sell. Sell the device, sell the product before you have it. Because if the customer gives you money for it, you know that it’s worse to develop it. And if you build up trust, they will give you the money before. I mean it’s a slow way of growth, but it’s a steady way forward. And you have the freedom. And you can always bring in venture capital. This is always possible. But if you have it once venture capital in, I don’t have any idea how to get it out without more venture capital or an IPO. Then you’re in this one-way thing with bootstrapping, you have the freedom and always the other option.

Christian Soschner01:10:52

I couldn’t agree more. Couldn’t agree more. I think selling is also important for venture capital financed companies to always have an eye on the market and find out what potential customers need. And how well that really works. I think Theranos is a is a good example how well selling works on the market, even when you don’t have a product. it was I think it was in the podcast with Sebastian Mallaby. he wrote the book The Power Law, which is basically I call it a brief history of venture capital. And I think he coins the term premature truth. So it’s just important to be honest and open about the development situation and not treat it like the Theranos team to just say we have what we don’t have, then I think bootstrapping works really, really well. And there are always customers on the market who are happy to be the first ones. Yep. But when you don’t find a customer, when you’re on the market, it’s the same with fundraising. When a company is on the diligent really diligently on the market for more than one year, and there is no not one investor showing up and not one customer, basically it might also be the idea is wrong.

Philipp Baaske01:11:58

I think we I mean we founded the company in 2008, but the whole journey began in 2006. And I think we had no customer for three years. There was nothing worked. Neither customer nor venture capital money. What kept you going? We never thought about failing. So we were a very tough situation, maybe bankrupt the next day, but failure was not in our mind. We had the belief that we have a powerful technology in our hands, and if it fails, it’s because us that we don’t do it the right way, that we don’t try hard enough. So this failure was not in our mind. We were completely convinced that it will work, and this is, I think, what finally convinced the first customer. This was also a founder-based company, and the founder knew our situation, and so we had a we had a connection, and it was I think they’ve seen that we fully believe in what we do. This is also when I’m a business angel and look at teams, I look at them if they believe, if the founders don’t believe in the idea, who else should? We have to believe. And if you don’t believe in your own idea, I mean sleep a night over it, but maybe you should your sense should stop it.

Christian Soschner01:13:23

We have a question from the audience, I see, um, which I think is quite interesting and funny. So let’s get it in the conversation. When are the medicines available for every person that every disease is treatable? What’s your what’s your guess on that? Hopefully, before it’s too late for me.

Philipp Baaske01:13:41

So my mother had cancer and was saved by Dr. Tsuman had the team, so am I afraid of getting cancer? So my family has a certain history of cancer cases. And so I’m also afraid of getting cancer. And this is a thing, also one reason why I founded NanoTemper, because I thought what can I what can I do to improve the situation with cancer? I don’t want to be a victim of the fate. And one thing, okay, I can do I can develop a drug, but then it’s one drug against one cancer thing. But where have do I have the biggest leverage? And then it was about tools for the scientists. So there are a lot of clever scientists, thousands, tens thousands of them. If they have better tools, they can develop better drugs faster. So this was we have around 20,000 users now. And if you just think about if we improve the usability of our device in a way that we save the the scientists one hour per week. You have 50 hours, 50 weeks, one hour per week times 20,000 scientists is one million hours. And this is a huge leverage, one million hours more time to discover new cancer drugs. So, as I said, prediction about the future, especially tough, but I strongly believe that every disease is treatable, and I hope that we will get there, and that everyone has access to it. It’s very important that people have to access to these drugs and that we get these drugs quicker. So every month counts. So I mean every year you have 18 million new cancer cases. Every year, this is like the population of the Netherlands. 18 million. It’s more than one million new cases every month. So every month, when we help a company to release a cancer drug one month earlier, you can save a lot of lives. And if you are ill and you really have the cancer every every month, every day is very important for you. This is also why we push so hard to be quick with our solutions on the market because it makes a difference. So I I don’t know when this will be, but I push really hard that it will be sooner.

Christian Soschner01:16:08

I think with HIV, HIV, when you remember it right, was a deadly virus back in the 80s with a very, very short life expectancy after an infection. Now it looks more like, but correct me if I’m wrong, you’re the expert here, not me. I’m from the finance side. now it’s like a manageable disease, and they heard from some scientists that people, when they get the proper treatment, can basically live a normal life and don’t infect anybody anymore, which means they can also have kids. And it’s it happened in the 80s, 90s, 2000s, 2010, it’s four decades. do you see a similar development for cancer possible? I mean, cancer is still a friend of mine died two years ago from cancer. Do you see that’s possible also for cancer to come to the same state like in HIV, that it’s a manageable disease and that basically people can normal lives, can live normal lives?

Philipp Baaske01:17:04

Yeah, you think in leukemia they also had a huge improvement over the last decades. So some cancer cases are just not no problem more. But it’s not only about drugs, so we we develop tools for for scientists that they develop drugs, it’s it’s also about preventing the drug from happening. I mean, if you look at cancer for men, smoking alone is responsible for more cancer cases than all the other things together. Can we repeat that? Because I still know people who say smoking is not. No, if you if you’re a man and you smoke, you stop it. If you want to prevent yourself to get cancer, stop smoking. And women? For women it’s also the case, but in women’s not so predominant in the statistics. There was a recent statistic in last year, and there was that for the risk factors for cancer for men, the risk smoking imposes is more than all the other risk factors together. For women, the risk is is at all smaller because I think they take more care of their of their health. But also smoking was not the was also the biggest risk, but not so dominant as a man. But I stop smoking. Prevention is the best thing, and the funny thing is our Munich headquarter is in the former Philipp Morris fabrication. Oh, really? They produced cigarettes in the fabrication, and now we are in there to fight cancer. This is this is fate somehow. Funny life.

Christian Soschner01:18:43

you said one million hours. So basically, you help saving time and resources. the one question that I had in my mind when you mentioned that was I know how much money I need to develop a new therapy. So basically, currently it’s about three to four billion dollars to develop something from the lab up to the market, roughly statistics. And also Jack Scannell in a previous podcast confirmed that he’s doing a great research in the efficiency and productivity of drug development processes. But then I thought, I don’t know the hours scientists have to work to bring one drug to the market. Just out of curiosity, did you ever count the hours that scientists invest time to develop a new drug?

Philipp Baaske01:19:40

No, because the teams are different sizes, it’s tough. But what we know is we can speed up. So we had the case of a pharma company with one of his new, it was in the PROTAC or IDB area, where they struggle to get an assay in early drug discovery, they struggle to get an assay working, they spent, I think, three months on it. Then got to know us, they sent us the samples. We didn’t know much about the samples, and we got the assay working the next day, so we spent two days of work. So they they tried for three months, and with our tools, it was just two days.

Christian Soschner01:20:15

Cool.

Philipp Baaske01:20:16

And now if you save several months, I mean not it’s good for the patient, but also if you have blockbuster drug, it’s more than one billion dollar a year. Every month is around 100 million dollars. So if you are three months early on the market, it’s 300 million euros. Our devices are just I think in this case the device is 400,000 euros. Invest 400,000 euros to get 300 million more.

Christian Soschner01:20:50

Easy calculation, or yeah, quite simple, quite simple, makes sense, makes sense logically. I mean you can do that now. So when we switch a little bit away from the science behind your technologies and going more towards leadership, leadership lessons learned. I mean, building a company with more than 200 employees is not easy. And coming out of the lab, I think writing your PhD thesis, getting the first customer is one important milestone, but then you have all the way down to scale a company to a multinational business with more than 200 employees, and what I see on LinkedIn, you are still hiring very, very a lot of people, that’s quite a lot of people. What are the three most important leadership lessons that you learned in the last years when as you started NanoTemper?

Philipp Baaske01:21:41

The most important thing is walk the talk. You really have to live what you’re speaking about. You you have a culture, you have values, and you have to live them. You can’t. I mean, when you say you treat everyone equally, and you’re CEO and founder, it’s not about drinking champagne with your executive team and only with them. It’s also having a peer with everyone, with a beer with everyone in your production. You have to treat everyone equally, and it’s your personality. I mean, you can play a role for a certain time, but over years it’s your personality. You have to really have to live it, and you have to start with yourself. So it’s about in the beginning I did a lot of times wrong. I complain about the how others behave and I try to change them. But you can’t change others, you can only change your own attitude and your own behavior. So as soon as I realized it, I got more coaches and also mentors and worked on myself and also got feedback to improve things I did wrong. And this is start with yourself. I think as a founder CEO, or wherever you are, you have to start with yourself.

Christian Soschner01:23:04

The first lesson, the second and third lesson.

Philipp Baaske01:23:07

I think there is no second, it’s start with yourself. Yeah. I always experienced that my own ego was my biggest hurdle to overcome. When you hire better people, you see how good they do you it’s tough to see it, to let them go, to trust them. Also, as a founder, you have been two people, we were doing everything. And as a founder, you grow if you give away things. You give away things, the responsibilities, and another person does it another way. You do it your way, another person does it a different way. And this is often tough to accept.

Christian Soschner01:23:46

When we when we look inside inside your decision-making processes, you mentioned this a couple of times, complaining. So when when I go through the process step by step to work from realizing that there is a problem to what’s the solution, and hiring a person might be a solution, might be the right solution. What role does complaining play in that decision? I think just let me give a little bit more information about it. when you look inside of me, when I feel that something is wrong, um, I mean, the ideal process would be to see, ah, there’s a problem. Here is the solution. Let’s connect the dots, and it’s an easy, unemotional process, a logical process. Unfortunately, in my world, it’s not. So it starts with this gut feeling that something is wrong. Then comes a phase of negativity, of complaining. it might be internal, it might be external. But in my opinion, it’s necessary to come to the point that they realize what the problem is, that they find that they can define the problem. So initially, I don’t have clarity about the problem, it’s just an emotion. And after I realize what the problem is, and I can define it and I can name it, then I can start working on a solution. In your world, how important is complaining?

Philipp Baaske01:25:06

Complaining is one thing, it’s often you complain despite there is no problem. Because it’s a personal emotional thing for you. There is no problem, you just complain about the situation. But in an objective way, there is no problem. It’s just a personal because something pissed you off, someone pissed you off. It’s just a personal thing. And this you have to stop to be honest to you. It’s just this complaining is about you. And it’s also the negativity to complain about politics, all the things you can’t change. For me, this is an excuse not to work on the things you can change. Or you say, Oh, it’s too tough to change. But you can change, you can help another person. This has already changed a lot. If every person helps another person, if everyone does it, you can achieve a lot. And it’s must I don’t like this complaining, it sets a wrong attitude. And then from the beginning, if you start with with this attitude, a lot of things goes wrong because you always have to fight against. And for me, this is mostly an excuse. It’s about others did it wrong, this is because I can’t perform.

Christian Soschner01:26:24

And this is an excuse.

Philipp Baaske01:26:26

Not always, but often.

Christian Soschner01:26:28

Let’s stay a little bit on the emotional side of leadership. How important are emotions in leadership, in your opinion?

Philipp Baaske01:26:34

And leadership is all about emotions. People follow you. I mean, leadership is not about you, it’s about your people. You’re only a leader if someone follows you. And they follow you because they believe in you and they trust in you, and it’s only emotions. It’s personality, it’s emotions. You have to talk with them in a very emotional way because it’s not about you, it’s about them. A leader is defined by the followers. Only by the followers. Only if you know the followers, you can define the leader. A leader alone is nothing. It’s just a person. It’s always the follower who are important. And so it’s emotions.

Christian Soschner01:27:16

How do you how do you treat employees? What’s your what’s your what’s your learning in leadership? What is the right way to approach employees?

Philipp Baaske01:27:26

I think you often read about eye level, but if you talk about eye level the same eye level is already wrong. I think you would say normal. I like people. Just normal. I I I treat everyone equally. At least I try. And this is the approach. If I smile at one, normally this person smiles back. So it’s just reading people. No, you always meet twice over street. People are nice and they always treat you the same way.

Christian Soschner01:28:06

When we talk about treating people in a nice and kind way, these days when you read leadership books, they are often about being kind and being nice to everybody. Then you look into the sports world and realize that athletes and top-performing athletes very often seek people that push them forward and the demand from them that they don’t be nice. So that they just shout at them and scream at them to just get the best out of them. Where do you see in leadership in your world the balance between being kind and nice and also sometimes being unfriendly and pushy to move people forward for their own benefit? Is there must there be a balance, or is it really either or in your opinion?

Philipp Baaske01:28:49

I would say it’s to be honest and transparent. If someone does something wrong, tell this person it’s wrong. Don’t tell you’re stupid or whatever, just say it’s wrong. It’s honesty and transparency. And it’s all built on trust. The other things are just some mentality things. It’s just like say how it is is also learned in my from my village times with craftsmen and farmers. You take the things as they are, and you I think the area where I’m from Franconia, we are known to be very direct. And this is very efficient. You don’t talk around, you say what it is. You try to get an image of the reality and describe the reality. And I think it’s honesty when you say someone you did this wrong, this person can learn. You can you can say it a nice way or in a not so nice way, a pushy way, but this is a second layer. First, you have to identify the reality and name the reality, and the rest is then communication, and communication is also it’s bilateral. I mean it’s not a general thing, you have to understand, you have to know the other person, and then you can communicate it in a way that you think it’s best for the other person. Because the information, how you receive information is not about me how I talk, it’s it’s about how you understand it. So you have to give it to you in a way I think you you can understand it. And this can be a pushy. Some people like the pushy way, some people like the very nice way. So it’s up to me as a leader or manager to understand the best way of communication for this certain person.

Christian Soschner01:30:41

Is it easy?

Philipp Baaske01:30:43

No, it’s very hard. You feel often, and it’s I mean, honesty and transparency and this trust helps. So I mean I often treat people wrong, and then you have to have the guts to go through the next day and say sorry. If you can do this, you can solve a lot of problems. And say you will very much appreciate it if you say I’m sorry, I treated you wrong. This helps a lot. If you do a mistake, be honest and stay to this mistake. This helps and this builds up a lot of trust because it says you’re open, you’re transparent, and this is what really people appreciate if you’re honest to them. However tough it is, you tell them, they will appreciate the honesty.

Christian Soschner01:31:31

Yeah, I think especially in the knowledge world that we have these days, it’s important to keep people motivated. And if leaders fail in that, I think they block a lot of energy. And innovation cannot move forward when people feel blocked, in my opinion. What do you how do you see it?

Philipp Baaske01:31:52

Yeah, when when people have fear, it can block innovation. Some say it can also be a driver, it’s it only it also depends on the person, but fear, you should be you shouldn’t be afraid of something, you feel safe. And I think this is also about feeling trusted. If you see someone believes in you, you feel very confident to try the risky things. And this is also where you have to control, let’s say, the gossip. Sometimes people are afraid because in the past something happened and then someone was fired, and then people are afraid to do the same thing. But this is also a lot of assumption. So this is why it’s important to always actively communicate how you think and how you would react in such a situation. Also, when a new employee starts, you tell them, Well, I tell them I’m getting angry very quickly, and you will you will see it, but the next day I it’s it’s over, I’m fine again. Do you get angry very quickly? Yeah, I do. Really? Yeah.

Christian Soschner01:32:59

And how do you manage that?

Philipp Baaske01:33:02

I often have now a stress ball. I mean, I need movement to control. I think experience really really helped about it.

Christian Soschner01:33:11

What about how I mean I read a lot from leaders that they got into breathing exercises, meditation. Have you ever explored that route?

Philipp Baaske01:33:22

Now for me it’s running, doing sports, going outside, walking around, the river Isar. I have to go into movement. And it’s good to find your own some rituals. What happens then when you walk? It has to be outside, so it frees my mind. I’m somehow stuck in a in a black tunnel with angry emotions. And when I when I change my environment, it helps me to get out of this can call it rabbit hole. So I have to change locations for it.

Christian Soschner01:33:56

Does it make a difference for you whether you walk alongside the ether in also outdoors, nature, compared to having a walk in the city?

Philipp Baaske01:34:08

Important is that it’s outside. Can be a city, can be a forest, can be a river, it can be a beach, but it has to be outside, not inside. Or the Oktoberfest. Yeah, sometimes with too much ego, it could also go the wrong direction.

Christian Soschner01:34:25

This is true, this is true. Let’s deal a little bit with managing emotions and innovation collaboration and success. When I was a student and I got my degree in economics, business management, um, I had always this picture in mind that small companies are very innovative, and there were a lot of studies on the market back then in the 90s already. small companies are innovative, then defined the market, and then they have the problem that to do the same thing over and over and over and over again. And this is what takes the innovation out of the company because if when you want to serve millions of customers, you need to do the same thing to deliver the same product to the same customer group all the time. And this also has the risk that the company at a later point in time fails because customers move on, competition arises, and the company already has lost the ability to be innovative and successful. So, one part is the leadership. So to keep people motivated and moving forward and not being angry all the time and not evoke emotions of fear. The other side is structural. I always thought this is the normal cycle. You have a small company, it grows, it fails, it goes extinct, and the next company comes. And then there are these outlier companies on the market like Apple, Microsoft, Tesla, for example, and they seem to be innovative over decades. What’s your experience as a leader of an innovation company? How can you maintain the spirit of innovation while growing your company?

Philipp Baaske01:36:00

This is a tough one. I’m also not sure if Microsoft and Google and so good because they’re still quite quite young. Maybe the old Mark, this German Merck, which is more than 150 years old, they survived for a very long time. Or there’s a hotel in Japan who is more than which is more than 750 years. 750. Very old. Yeah. Maybe Cs are the ones, and I’m not sure if if innovation really helps you against instinct extinction. It’s just what we communicate that innovation is so I think it’s a good customer or product market fit with the customer. You can also innovate too quickly and it’s too much for the market. Yeah, it’s tough to see. I have no good answer for it.

Christian Soschner01:36:46

Did you ever have a situation in your company where you felt you innovate too quickly for the market that the customers can’t follow?

Philipp Baaske01:36:53

We innovated too quickly for our own organization. So we were launching products, new products so quickly that we could scope up with the training of our sales team, also with ramping up the production. So it was too many, two new things in a too short time. This can happen.

Christian Soschner01:37:12

I don’t want to let you out of this room before we talk about one question: micromanagement. So your success was basically focusing on sales very early in your company, uh, which, in my opinion, qualifies you as the best salesperson in an organization. but if you want to grow a company, you need more salespeople. and you said before that you want to avoid micromanagement. When you hire salespeople and you set up all the structures, you set up all the sales scripts, uh, you brought the first customers in. How can how do you manage yourself to stay away from micromanagement and letting people make their own mistakes, their own experiences? How do you manage that?

Philipp Baaske01:38:00

I think we hired people who tell us to stop micromanagement. You always have the tendency to try to have some influence to go into the operations again because we have some pattern running and you also need people actively stopping you. So maybe one thing is also to hire people who are allergic to micromanagement and tell you or leave the good science that you did too much. Some people also like it, maybe. But I think often you have to be stopped actively, someone telling you, hey, you’re too doing too many things with micromanagement, because often you start from your technical experience. You founded the company, you understood the technology. So you’re in this leadership position because you are an expert in the technology. Then you hire more people, then you have to manage and lead the people, which means you have less time for the technology. But the technology was a thing which give you which gave you power, which which makes you to feel secure. But you’re losing this. All your people in the team have more time with the technology, so they’re getting better than you. And if all your strength is based on knowledge about the technology, you are then afraid of the others because they’re now much better experts than you are, because you spend most of your time in managing them. And out of this fear, some people have the tendency to control, to gain power again by micromanaging by controlling the people. And I think this micromanagement can be a symptom or sign for fear. I think what’s also helps me is I’m I’m lazy. I’m I’m too lazy to get all the details. I’m just when I see it’s the right direction, so I’m quite happy. I’m maybe too lazy to go into the details. I think this helped me.

Christian Soschner01:40:07

Yeah, I think it’s important to make to help a company thrive on the market, uh, to let people just work to the work and not fall into the trap of sometimes employees come back and try to delegate it back to the leadership to get the work done. So I think important to just really leave the task at the employee until it’s finished, which then gives you the room to explore new routes outside the company. Also, read on your LinkedIn profile that you are a business angel. tell me more about it. What is your life as a business angel?

Philipp Baaske01:40:46

We as NanoTemper, we had a business angel and we had a very, very good experience with him. So we also bought back his shares to be completely independent, but the experience was so good, we learned so much from him, and he he was a guy in the beginning who really believed in us, and this really we had a lot of struggle, no one believed in us, and then this guy, also a known entrepreneur in Munich from real estate business, completely different business, he believed in us, very strong and great personality, and this really pushed us forward in the tough times to have such a person believing in us. And this is now I want to give this also back to founders because the experience was so great. So for me, business angels are not only investing money, I really have the attitude to also help them to be there as some kind of mentor and not going there and tell them, hey, you have to do it this way when they have an answer or a question.

Christian Soschner01:41:47

I I can I can help them, but they have to approach me. What’s the most important lesson that you learned as a business angel?

Philipp Baaske01:41:56

I just started one and a half year ago. I I think it’s more work than I expected. And I’m I think most important lesson is I’m I think I’m I’m learning more than the founders. Because there’s no point of view, gives me a lot of new insights.

Christian Soschner01:42:17

What’s your investment criteria? What are you looking for in founders?

Philipp Baaske01:42:22

You say believe in the idea, because they are the experts, the technical expert for the idea, they know it best. Often they are the one person in the world who know it best, and you can do a lot of due diligence or whatever thing, do you feel safe? But if we look at them, do you believe? Do they have this fire, this glow in their eyes when they talk about their ideas and business? And then look, are they willing to learn? Do they manage to go away from this technology development thing to do an entrepreneur where selling and getting money is important? So do they listen? I in several teams you have a no-sayer. There’s a person who says everything in this team they don’t invest. Because this person, this negative person can kill everyone. This person is also the person who’s not believing in the idea and just got somehow into the team because it’s opportunistic.

Christian Soschner01:43:25

I mean this this brings up a question that connects to the questions before, but also I think it’s important for investors. I mean, situations in a company change, companies evolve, and not everybody is a good fit at any stage in the company, so sometimes it’s necessary, especially when it comes to negativity, uh, to keep the team moving forward and not stopping in a development, uh, to also fire people. What’s your approach as a business angel? Do you also give honest and open advice and say, okay, guys, look, I mean, you have five great people, uh, get rid of the sixth person because it really holds you back and you can’t move forward with that kind of negativity in the company.

Philipp Baaske01:44:04

Up to now, in the three investments, I didn’t have the situation, but in my own company, and this is I think the one very important thing which also discriminates good company for let’s say normal companies, everyone can hire. Everyone likes to hire because it’s a nice thing, and the tough thing is firing. Talking with someone, looking this person into the eye, and saying we have to separate. And series where a lot of people fail, they are afraid to fire someone because of the knowledge of this person, so long as a company, what will happen to it? And then this is a sign when you think we can’t fire this person because it’s too important, then you have to do it immediately because the next day will be even worse. And in my experience, whenever we had have to let go someone, it has never become bad. It just changed, but it was never a big problem. We’re still doing this too late because it’s really, really tough. I know when you tell the other person you know this person will have a tough time afterwards. But believe me, I have this time before. A lot of my grey hairs are from this things, but this is what you have to do. This is this is leadership. The tough decisions are about you, and this is not hiring, it’s firing. And one toxic person can kill your whole team. Yeah, that’s true. And you have nice people, they won’t tell you that you have to fire someone, but afterwards they come, hey, this was a good decision and tell you what went wrong, but not beforehand. You have to find ways to figure this out. But then if if you keep this bad person or toxic persons for your company, your good people will leave because they block. And when I told it sounds very rude when I talk about bad or toxic persons. So often you start nice and then something in private life change, or it’s just when your company evolves. In the beginning, you’ve been five people all in the same room, everyone knows everything about everyone, and then company grows, complexity increases, and then you have to change. And some people who are perfect fit for a 10 people company are not for 100, and then they realize they can’t go on, and sometimes they have a behavior like building their own kingdom protected and blocking the growth of the company, and then you have to react. So I I’ve already I’ve even been in friends with some of these people and had to fire them, which kills a relationship. But it was about the company, it was it’s not about the person is as bad, it’s just the fit between company and the person is not a fit anymore.

Christian Soschner01:47:06

How would you define toxic behavior in a company? What behavior do you consider as being toxic for an organization?

Philipp Baaske01:47:14

Talking bad about other people, blocking new ideas, having this protecting and stopping everything, and also gossiping behind your back. This gossip people who say hey, you’re a nice guy, and behind your back they say you are a bad guy.

Christian Soschner01:47:32

It’s it’s a no-go. And what about productivity? When you see that some people are not so productive, is this also a reason why I say you have to draw the line? Or is it really more on the behavioral behavioral side, team spirit?

Philipp Baaske01:47:48

Productivity is I said we trust our people and we do, and you have good days, you have bad days. Sometimes you have a problem in private life, you are ill, and you have to talk with each other and be honest and say, hey, I’m having a hard time at home. It influences my work. Please be patient with me. And it has never been a problem when you being aware of the situation a person has. So honesty and transparency helps.

Christian Soschner01:48:21

Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. I had a discussion recently on LinkedIn, and I would like to ask you for your opinion on that topic, especially when it comes to angel investing. In my world, an investor is someone that deploys capital into a company to help the company grow. So basically, in a business angel way, company starts, has an idea, needs some investments, their product doesn’t qualify yet for finding customers, and an angel investor can help the team to get to the next step. So this is my investment view on investment generally. It doesn’t matter if it’s a company, if it’s a business angel, or a venture capitalist. It’s pretty much the same role deploying capital against equity. In the last 10 years in the startup world, I learned that some startups have more uh, let’s say, demands to their angel investors, that you also would like to see them bring in their network on an operational level. That some said that they would like to see the angel investor working basically for free in the company. where I always have this inner conflict in me where I say, but this is not investing. So a business angel deploys capital into a company to help the team. Okay, it can also be mentoring once in a while, but the team needs to operate the business. And lately on LinkedIn, I had the conversation via comments with some angel funds, uh, some seed funds, uh, who say, Yes, of course. I mean, the investors need also to bring in the network and also bring in their expertise and experience. What’s your opinion? How do you see the role of a business angel in a company?

Philipp Baaske01:50:00

And not working for free. It’s also investing in being there as a mentor. But you have to define the role. You have to speak with the founders and define your role. What are your expectations? Is it more the money? Is it the network? And then you have to agree on it. It’s also a communication. There is no general rule, I would say. It’s about talk talking about it and agreeing what you expect from it or what one side would deliver. It’s about talking. I don’t like this general rules. It’s good you have something you can you can hold on. There are rules, yes. I mean you have found everything is new. I can stick to the rules. No, it’s you define your own rules within the legal laws, but you define the rules and you talk about it. And the world is complex, accept the complexity and talk with each other. This is most important. You have to break the rules as a startup, you do new things.

Christian Soschner01:51:02

Yeah, I like clarity in also in startups. I mean, what I like is seeing investors on cap tables, uh, people especially and organizations who can bring in capital into a company. If they have expertise in the field of the company, I think in my opinion, in my word, it’s always a second contract, so advisory contract or executive contract, why not? So it’s one is the investment contract, the other one is the operational role or a mentoring role. I don’t like mixing up things, so seeing a lot of people on the cap table that provided services some years ago in the start of the company and still own 2%. Doesn’t make sense to me. Yeah.

Philipp Baaske01:51:38

Yeah, we also had this case in the very early days. We had a business angel approaching us, more or less. It was can we call him business angel? Maybe not, but a person approaching us. I give you 100,000 euros, I invest in you, and you hire me, and I earn 100,000 euros per year. It was just okay, you said you have it on your CV. This makes no sense to to invest money in a company to take it out and invest, so this is completely unlogical. This is also what I with some force, I think it has been Heidegger Gründer for also before. This is okay, you can do it, but this would limit my freedom and independence. So do also why why investing 500,000 euros and taking out 50 for an advisor? Why not trying to make the most out of the money? It means also you don’t trust the founders. You have to trust the founders that they do the best with your money. If you don’t trust them and you have to control them with advisors, don’t invest. Yeah, and I totally waste of time and money. I don’t understand this concept. I understand it. You invest. Most of these managers are responsible for foreign money, they don’t own the money. So you just got the money from family office, whatever. It’s it’s not your own money, so risk-aware. So they try to manage the risk, and with this, they waste money.

Christian Soschner01:53:21

I mean, my personal preference is to have on the cap table funds who can capitalize the company in tough times or when the company opens a new market and can it has the ability to grow quicker with more capital. an investor can be on the payroll when the investor brings expertise to the table that’s necessary for the stage of the company.

Philipp Baaske01:53:44

But but why I mean if I invest money, I don’t need money. Why should I pay myself? It’s I mean, why should investors stay on the payroll? You invest the money because you have it. You would work for free for the company. I don’t work for a for the company. I I help them and they need me, but I won’t. It makes no sense to me because when I can invest money, it means I have enough money. And then putting yourself on a payroll is it’s not it makes no sense to me. Because as a business age you have to be aware that you lose this money. It’s high-risk business. You believe in the team, you want to help them. So this money is a wave for me. And I getting on a payroll it’s also not.

Christian Soschner01:54:31

No, it makes no sense. I mean, I saw companies here in Austria where basically the business angel dedicates their full work time, 40 hours per week, to the company. where I would say, okay, I mean, but this is work for the company, this I don’t feel it’s not an investment role anymore. Yeah. So it’s more a combination of executive and investor. And in such cases, I would say, why not separate it? and say, okay, when you’re an executive, let’s be open and honest with all other people, that this is an important part of the company. And for future fundraising, I would also go down that route to find a solution with future investors to also pay a remuneration when a person dedicates 40 hours of their lives to the company.

Philipp Baaske01:55:12

Yeah, I like that you said you separate the roles. I couldn’t believe that I invest and take over the CEO role or whatever. This just means I don’t believe them. And then it’s just a lot of work. If you want to have a lot of work, but it’s for me, it’s much nicer to help the guys and to see how they evolve. As an outsider, sitting back and looking at them makes me feel good, makes me proud. And I don’t want to have to spend work, real work into it. I believe them, they are the experts, they know it best. When they need help, they approach me, and this is perfect.

Christian Soschner01:55:54

So I think we have the same opinion then. If I understood you’re right, as an investor, as an annual investor, you invest in the company, you deploy capital, yeah, but you don’t work for the company. Exactly. And you want to have teams that you can trust that they are the best solution for developing the product forward and finding product market fit. Yeah. And you don’t interfere with them. Except some mentoring or some both functions, but you don’t go to their office and tell them how to do their job.

Philipp Baaske01:56:20

No, they know it best. I mean, that makes absolutely no. So they could have started like when I know something best, I start the business by myself. Yeah.

Christian Soschner01:56:28

So we come back to trust, trusting people then. Exactly. Philipp, I could go on talking with you endlessly, but I see on the clock that we already coming close to two hours talking. I would like to ask me two final questions if this is fine with you. did I miss anything in this episode? Is there any question open that you would like me to ask?

Philipp Baaske01:56:52

Let me think about it because it’s two hours. I think we talked about a lot. No, we also we even had Jean-Luc Picard in our conversation. That’s great. That’s always a great idea. This engage thing. No, I didn’t miss anything.

Christian Soschner01:57:08

Then let me ask you my final question. You have a lot of experience as a scientist. You grew up, you grew out of a small village in Bavaria, went to a university, started your company. you have built a really impressing success story with NanoTemper. I mean, scaling a company to over 200 employees in a multinational environment is not an easy job, especially in the last three years with all these shutdowns. And you mentioned before that you like talking to people in person. I think lockdowns must have been a tough time to change the leadership style. You amended that perfectly, you kept your company growing and you are still hiring and flowing with the company. When you would have a chance to step into, I think it’s also Star Trek. Star Trek also did time travel or HG Wells. Yeah, if you could get a time machine and travel back to your younger self, let’s say around 2000, uh, what advice, with all the experience you gained in the last 23 years, what advice would you give your younger self?

Philipp Baaske01:58:18

So I would never do this because knowing my younger self, because what I do is I like to listen to people and but I do my thing. So I get all the information, but it’s about information, not influence. So my advice would be not only to my younger self because afterwards you always know know better, do your thing. And thing is really about do. Get all the information available, talk with a lot of people, get advices, but do and know people share experience with you. Experience experiences are from the past, experience are limited. When something was impossible in the past, reconsider it because the situation in the past was different. Now and in the future, there are new technologies, things who have been which have been impossible in the past may now be possible. So take the advice, take the experience, but take it out you are now and there is a future. So do it, do your thing.

Christian Soschner01:59:25

That’s great advice. Get going, get started. Philipp, I had a great time in the last two hours talking to you. You shared important leadership lessons, important lessons on how to move the company forward. I wish you and your team all the best.

Philipp Baaske01:59:38

Thank you.

Christian Soschner01:59:39

Please, please, please keep going and really work hard on making every disease treatable. I think it gives back so much quality in life when people know that there are other people working to keep them safe and healthy. It’s a it’s the best thing I ever heard in the last 108 episodes, in my opinion, saving the world. Thank you. That’s great, that’s awesome. Thank you. Enjoyed it very much. Me too. Me too. Thank you for joining us on this journey into the world of NanoTemper and the relentless pursuit of life-changing drug discoveries. I hope this episode has captivated you with the incredible potential of Philipp’s vision and groundbreaking biotech tools. If you are as inspired as I am, hit that like button and subscribe to never miss out on future episodes. Together we can spark a revolution in the pharmaceutical industry that will change the world. Leave a comment, share this video with your friends and family to help us spread the word and make a real impact. And a huge shout out to our amazing subscribers whose support helps us create more content. Thank you for being a part of this movement towards a brighter, healthier, and more hopeful future.